It’s about as unpopular an opinion as defending a rapist for their masculinity and “man on a mission” mindset. Because that’s exactly what this article is doing.
I love your work Jordan, and your vision for integrated, conscious, participating men. In this case, I agree with Scott above: to be offering Trump as an avatar of 'man on a mission energy' when he is the very embodiment of dark masculine risks inadvertently legitimising his autocratic tendencies -- which I am sure is not your intent. I am saying this because I am a huge admirer of your vision and the way you conduct yourself. But in this post, I would have loved to have seen you illuminating Trump as a case study of 'wounded masculine', and clearly identify how his 'activating' power is being used to extremely dangerous ends. Offering you this with huge respect, solidarity and appreciation of all you bring into the world with your own unique frequency of beautiful, powerfully embodied solar energy. I find you an inspiration.
Thank you for sharing, Matthew. I really appreciate the kind words.
I didn’t vote for Trump and am not his biggest fan, but I can appreciate a lot of what he’s doing. From where I’m standing he mostly seems to be making good on what he promised the American people and what the American people voted for (which I’ve ~never seen from a politician). I may not agree with all his moves but the man took a bullet for his country and kept going — I don’t believe he would do this purely out of ego, and it speaks to his sheer will and mission-driven energy
Our government is $36 trillion in debt, a bloated behemoth of a bureaucracy, and ~80% of Americans support (and voted for) cutting out its wasteful inefficiencies. This is decades overdue and I generally stand behind it
What you’re seeing as autocratic tendencies can also be seen differently — as an expression of an iron will to do what he told the people he would do. I did touch on the dark/wounded/shadow masculine energy in my piece, though to say Trump is “the very embodiment of dark masculine” for me seems like a one-dimensional caricature of a complex human being. If you listen with an open mind to his interviews with Rogan or Theo Von, for example, you’ll see a different side of him
He’s one of the most hated men in history and it’s important to be aware of the enormous propaganda campaign that has aimed to paint him as a devil. Yet no man can be reduced to his shadow. As Solzhenitsyn put it, “But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
I appreciate your considered response Jordan, and recognise we see developments in the US from very different perspectives. Without getting into a discussion of the arguments, needless to say, I am deeply concerned about what I'm seeing unfolding in the US, and what it portends for the world. I hold open the possibility that my analysis is incorrect, and no doubt time will tell. However, in the meantime, I am committed to gaining a deeper understanding of how people could arrive at such a different perspective on the situation, and on Trump, and what you have shared helps me in this endeavour. I appreciate you receiving my expression of unease over your piece in good faith. Also wishing you well with your open circles this week -- I would have loved to attend but have additional childcare commitments this week that makes it tricker than at other times. Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
Where do you get 80% support from? 64% of the voting population voted in the 2024 election, just under 50% of votes were for Trump. That’s 33% of eligible voters. An even smaller proportion of Americans.
"Then he is the very embodiment of dark masculine risks inadvertently legitimising his autocratic tendencies -- which I am sure is not your intent. " ... I don't think he cares. He's too busy being "activated". A bit pathetic, no? Btw, Jordan: he is an adjudicated rapist.
Yes, I sense we are here as men speaking from the heart, because we care about each other, and we care about the world. Appreciating Jordan for holding this space.
By far, the strongest, wisest, most whole, compassionate, secure, confident men I know in my life do not like Donald Trump or Elon Musk, or at least see them for who they are. They have a sense of balance and certainly don't spend a large portion of their time caring about these men like some do, but still.
Most (who I know) who do like them (or worship them?) have a deep sense of insecurity and weakness masquerading as some weird sort of "this is what strong looks like".
To each their own (that's the way it should be, of course), but I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of this situation.
In my opinion if we are viewing Trump/Musk as any sort of form of masculinity that any man should aspire to (a battering ram of masculine energy and purpose? Really?), then we are in deep trouble indeed. Do I agree with you that some of these triggered men need strong male role models? 100% yes. I just think Trump/Musk are the last people I would ever choose as those models. At least for any of the young men I have raised/coached/taught.
You may be missing my key point. I didn’t say anything about aspiring to be Trump or Musk. I’m specifically pointing to a particular quality of man-on-a-mission-ness that they definitely embody in spades. This particular quality is un-actualized in vast quantities of modern men and many men would benefit from actualizing it
I do understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree regarding the un-actualized potential of many modern young men.
The "man-on-a-mission-ness" that these two men "definitely embody in spades" is embarrassing in my opinion, and I think it does a disservice and is potentially dangerous to any young man to use them as any sort of example. I do think they are certainly examples of how NOT to be a man in almost every way, however.
I also disagree with your assertion regarding "why Trump triggers men".
IMO, I think Trump triggers most men because it is appropriate masculine behavior to respond to an asshole/bully by calling him out as an asshole/bully, and teaching young men the difference between true strength and utter weakness masquerading as strength.
Perhaps we simply run with different crowds of men? I understand your role in men's work, so maybe this is something you see with the folks you attract. I can't argue with that if that's the case, and I respect what you do. I'm sure if someone is hung up one way or the other on either of these guys, that you could possibly harness that energy in a more productive way. THAT I understand. But I can only see that working if it is divorced from the behavior we are seeing on display. Just giving my viewpoint on this. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong.
Disclaimer: I'm not being political here. I'm not a fan of either party right now, or really much of anything that is going on in that arena.
Our government is $36 trillion in debt, a bloated behemoth of a bureaucracy, and ~80% of Americans support (and voted for) cutting out its wasteful inefficiencies. This is decades overdue and I generally stand behind it
I did state in my piece that there are probably other reasons Trump triggers people. Yet I think what I’m pointing at is a larger factor than most would admit
I personally know quite a few good men who feel optimistic about this administration. I chose not to vote and I’m not Trump’s biggest fan but I generally feel optimistic about a number of the initiatives. I’m glad to see RFK Jr and Tulsi being sworn in. It’s too early to tell where all this is headed so let’s watch and see what happens (not that ppl will ever agree about what happens & whether it was favorable or unfavorable)
I'm a little confused as you seem to be approaching this from a political perspective now, which I stated was not my intent in my post, but more so looking at the character, behavior, and words of the two men and how this relates in some way to the challenging issues that modern young men face. For example, the men I mentioned in my first post that I stated do not like Trump are not all vehemently opposed to him from a political perspective.
One can feel that politically their actions may have some merit, while simultaneously understanding (IMO) that it is immature and (I'm just going to be quite frank here) completely misguided to look towards them in any way as a reference point for helping young men. Also, I watched Trump on Rogan and Theo Von. I see little complexity in him, but to each his own. It seemed that the point of those two interviews was to frame it that way.
I won't get into the political side here, as it seems (at least I thought) that wasn't the intent of your article. Suffice it to say that I echo Matthew's comments above on what I see happening in the US.
Finally, Jordan, let me say that I'm really not trying to be rude here at all. I know that you work with men, and are hosting some gatherings in the very near future. As a fellow father (of two elementary age boys), a basketball coach to many young men, and a citizen, stuff like this does concern me. The risk is legitimizing any of this behavior as "manly" or "healthy masculinity". It simply is not, and I will use my extremely limited online presence to at least attempt to have a little bit of a say, as someone who deeply cares about the mental and spiritual growth of our young people.
Thanks for all you do. Your article is great in that it allows open discussion like this to take place. Sometimes the nature of back and forth text leads to a feeling of disconnection. I feel that if we were having this conversation face to face, we'd probably be more in line than we realize, perhaps even clinking beer bottles at certain points :)
Thanks, Scott -- I can feel the kindness and respect and I really appreciate that. And I'd love to have that beer sometime! Maybe it would be cool to have a call and actually talk this out? Let me know if you may be up for that, or feel welcome to schedule a call: calendly.com/jordanbates
I can now see more clearly the distinction you're making around not making this political. I do hear you that much of Trump's personal behavior over the years has seemed immature, petty, bullying, self-aggrandizing, and not something we want to be passing on to young men as any sort of emblem of mature masculinity
That said I do personally notice a change in him that seems to have taken place since he first ran in 2016... losing in 2020 was humbling for him, I believe. And getting shot seemed to affect him too. I personally feel something coming through in his more recent speeches / press conferences that feels more human -- and more fatherly or grandfatherly or even presidential... I actually found his inauguration speech to be genuinely inspiring and unifying -- he spoke of a possibility of ending war globally, and he seems to be backing that up with some of his actions...
So for me more of a soft spot seems to have opened up in my heart for him. I believe all human beings are like complex Dostoevsky-novel characters -- patchwork tapestries of many threads... I see that in him too -- and I believe people have the capacity to change... and I believe that in his own way he is genuinely endeavoring to do right by his nation and the people who voted for him
And I do still stand by my original point that he is a force of nature when it comes to actualizing his will in the world -- and that many men would benefit from activating more of that ancient lifeblood of penetrative masculine manifestational power... though indeed, if that power is not guided by the Heart of Hearts, our species will likely continue on a path toward destruction
Jordan, I wanted to make one more comment here as I have been reflecting on this for a day or two.
You say: "That said I do personally notice a change in him that seems to have taken place since he first ran in 2016... losing in 2020 was humbling for him, I believe. And getting shot seemed to affect him too. I personally feel something coming through in his more recent speeches / press conferences that feels more human -- and more fatherly or grandfatherly or even presidential... I actually found his inauguration speech to be genuinely inspiring and unifying -- he spoke of a possibility of ending war globally, and he seems to be backing that up with some of his actions..."
I certainly can't tell you that your own, personal feelings are wrong, but, IMO, this has much more to do with you and your internal world than any sort of change that has happened in Donald Trump himself. To be frank, I'm not sure how anyone could possibly come to this conclusion with any sort of critical thinking and objective analysis. Trump demonstrates no sort of internal reflection, growth, increased compassion, etc. over the past 9 years. (Again, not talking politically here). If anything, I see the opposite. He certainly hasn't changed his behavior or his methods. He is the same person we have all known for the past 40-50 years. If I had to look up a definition in the dictionary of "not humbling", I would point to how Trump handled his loss in 2020. I'm sorry man, I just so vehemently disagree with what you are saying in this above paragraph especially in a post about helping young men that I simply have to call a spade a spade here.
Here's some good masculinity for you: When things don't go your way, make sure to ALWAYS blame someone else, never look within, and certainly NEVER consider that you could be wrong about something. What a great example! The 2nd-3rd grade boys who I coach are much better examples of how to be a man, and I certainly know if any of them or my two boys acted like our president, they would get a talking to and a harsh lesson. I suspect you probably feel the same way.
There are simply too many great fucking men in this world to allow pictures of Trump on lions and Trump grift trading card doppelgangers as examples of masculinity to young, impressionable men to go unchecked here.
I think it can be healthy for men to call out each other's bull shit if that's what they see happening, so that's what I'm attempting to do here, knowing that you can handle it. I know I'm glad when my friends call me out when they see something they feel is amiss.
The rest of your post I think offers some good points.
Jordan, I appreciate your work and I have always felt that you are someone who truly cares about all people and all life. However, I felt especially compelled to write a comment on this post (I think this is my first ever Substack comment) because it really irks something in me.
Jordan, know that I love you and appreciate you but I just have to say this very bluntly: your political analysis sucks (not just referencing this post but your other ones as well) It is clear that you have quite high spiritual development but your political views are just so off brother, and are perpetuating a lot of harm.
Trump and others are quickly turning this nation into an oligarchy and increasingly moving towards authoritarianism….yeah Trump is on a mission, a mission to gain more money, more power for himself and preserve America as a predominately white christian nation. Validating Trump in your posts is utterly blasphemous. He is causing damage to the nation and to the world on a level unprecedented to any other USA president. You need to take a deeper look at the things that are happening out here brother. I believe in you
Hey Wyeth, thanks for appreciating my work and for sharing your perspective. It means a lot that you can sense my genuine care for all people and for life.
Since you have opted for bluntness, I'll do the same:
You come across as rather patronizing/condescending here with comments like "your political analysis sucks," "your political views are just so off," "you need to take a deeper look," and "I believe in you"...
You seem to be implying that you're certain you have reached a more objectively accurate view than me about these matters, yet you don't provide much in the way of argumentation, other than to parrot some commonplace left-wing media talking points. You claim to know Trump's true motivations—but do you know this for certain? No, you don't. It's an opinion. You also imply that America was not already largely oligarchically controlled by a small group of people pre-Trump, which seems false. You boldly state that Trump is causing unprecedented damage, yet you don't back this up with anything.
I'm curious: What are your key sources for political information? Whose work do you recommend I look into to refine my perspective? I regularly explore the work of people on all sides of (and beyond) the right-left political spectrum. Do you?
You seem like an interesting guy based on a brief Google search of your work. If you're open I'd be curious to have a call sometime and have a good-faith heart-to-heart about all this, to find out more about where our divergences arise from. Feel welcome to schedule one if you like: calendly.com/jordanbates
Hey Jordan, thanks for the thoughtful response. There is so much to say about Trump but I will try to keep it as succinct as possible: read his biographies (“Trump: The Biography”, “Trump: The Art Of The Deal”) in them you will find that Trump’s entire life philosophy revolves around this idea of being a “winner” and “being the best”…so naturally you can assume based off this, and the self-aggrandizing comments he makes daily that his consciousness is operating from a heavily egocentric orientation.
In psychological terms (I come from a psychological background) one would say he is narcissistic. You can also find countless accounts online of psychologists giving sound reasoning alluding to Trump’s narcissistic nature. This isn’t something the liberal media just says to slander Trump. There’s truth to it.
The kicker for me is the fact that Trump was documented to have lied/distorted facts over 30,000 times during his presidency. If you listen to his speeches it becomes clear that he just rambles and spitballs and will say virtually whatever will make him and his campaign look good. He has never once spoken intelligently on any topic relating to politics, government, economics, etc.
For me personally, when someone is documented to have lied that many times, and when their speeches don’t ever sound intelligent in any way, I simply can’t trust a word that comes out that person’s mouth.
He can say all of these seemingly noble things, he can speak of ending war and making America prosperous again…but it just doesn’t hold any merit because…look who is saying them. Someone who was documented to have lied 30,000 times in a 4 year span. Someone who lost an election and couldn’t handle the idea of “losing” so he said the election was stolen. Someone who provoked a clearly unjust attack on the capitol building. Someone who has been involved in numerous fradulent business practices his entire life. And much more.
You say I don’t know Trump’s true motivations, and I admit I can’t know them in their entirety…but judging by his character, his history (again read his biographies)…you can come to understand far more than you might assume about his motivations and what is driving him.
I would also highly recommend diving deep into developmental psychology. Don Beck’s “Spiral Dynamics”, Dr. Susanne Cook-Greuter’s “The 9 Stages of Ego Development”, Ken Wilber’s “Integral Psychology”…these books are synthetic pieces of the works of the entire field’s history, with emphasis on adult psychological development. Wilber’s “Trump and a Post-Truth World” is also exquisite when it comes to explaining the current political state of the world in developmental terms.
Developmentally speaking, Trump and the Republicans operate from a primarily ethnocentric and nationcentric level of development, as many Republicans are quite obviously racist, and the entire party’s orientation stems around national interest (often with ethnocentric undertones) and advancing what is perceived best for America, which often comes at the expense of other nations.
The Democrats operate from a slightly higher altitude, still heavily nationcentric but also embodying a greater level of worldcentrism as well. A good example of this is the Democrats being so gung ho on climate change, which, if you hear the opinions of virtually any scientist, is a very real issue that humanity faces. Trump and the Republicans mostly deny the issue of climate change entirely, Trump removed America from Paris Climate Agreement, which represented a unification of many nations invested in cleaning up our carbon footprint, yet Trump and the Republicans left it so they could continue with their fossil fuel emissions, which will give them money in the short-term, but will erode the environment all the more in the long term. It is a hallmark of lower levels of maturity to prioritize short-term gain over long-term vision. Trump has basically no long-term vision at all. I could give many, many more examples of Trump and the Republicans rejecting worldcentric orientations for a more narrowly-minded interest (think about the fact that Trump is so heavily anti Diversity, Equity, Inclusion)
Of course, there is plenty of distortion and corruption on both sides, and both sides need to be called out. But my qualms with your perspective Jordan (not in this post but some of your others) is that you paint the parties as falsely equal, when they are not. The reality is that Trump and the Republicans are fundamentally less mature, less conscious, and more selfish and express a more narrow-concern in their political orientations and philosophy than the Democrats do. This doesn’t mean everything they do is wrong, and everything the Democrats do is right…but it does paint a picture as to where people are coming from and what their interests are. Would you rather support the side that expresses a greater concern for all people and life? Or would you rather support the more narrow and contracted side?
And about the oligarchy stuff, yes America has long been quite oligarchical, but with Trump it is getting way, way, wayyy worse. Do you not see a problem when the world’s 3 richest men (Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg) are all standing by Trump’s side at his inauguration? Musk alone has gotten 70B+ richer since Trump’s election. Musk, who isn’t even American, now has a quite influential role in government simply because Trump put him there. He wasn’t elected! That’s a freaking oligarchy!
And regarding the damage Trump is doing, it is happening on many levels. Firstly, his character and narcissistic nature is setting an atrocious example to the people of America and to the world on how a leader ought to act, the youth will be particularly affected by this. He has gradually eroded what the nation comes to consider “Truth” evidenced by his 30,000 lies in his first campaign, his denial of basic science (climate change for example)…and many of his recent flurry of executive orders are unconstitutional (he tried to take away birth-right citizenship, like wtf?)…and he also signed an executive order yesterday that essentially says “only the president can say what the law is” (a clear power grab lol). These are the most extreme executive orders but to me, it seems he is wielding as much power as possible as he can within his position, and my hunch is that he is trying to erode the power of the other branches of government. I could go on and on about more examples…the fact he seems to be siding with Putin and autocrat Russia more and more (Ukraine was not even invited to the peace talks and Trump recently falsely claimed that Ukraine started the war, which is a very very dangerous lie to tell)
Anyway, I know I am biased but I know enough to not trust a narcissist. Narcissists talk out of their ass and if you can’t see that with Trump then I just don’t know what else I can say. I was deeply irked when you seemed to be validating Trump through this post and giving him too much praise in your other posts. It is a very dangerous thing to do, when he so clearly represents a contractive and repressive force in the world when consciousness so deeply yearns for freedom, transcendence, and liberation.
I’m sure if we had a call we would agree on far more than it might seem, and I may take you up on that…but I couldn’t let these comments about Trump slide. I had an angry and patronizing tone in the first comment because that’s how I genuinely felt. I was angry and I wanted to communicate that! Some of the comments on here are thoughtful, but too nice.
Anyways, just want to say again I appreciate your work Jordan but I hope you think more before you praise Trump again, and I hope you think more about what type of impact this might have on your readers.
Btw, I hear what you are saying in this post, and i’m not denying the nobility of “man on a mission” energy, but to use Trump as an example is wild, since his mission is profoundly narcissistic, partial, and causing enormous amounts of suffering to others
Trump is on a mission like Hitler was. Musk is working to reduce the government organisations that financially support individuals in many different ways when he and his organisations have received Billions and billions of dollars from the government.
Both are hypocrites.
Just as hypocritical as your illustrations show: a strong beautiful man riding a lion when he is in reality he is obese, ugly looking and instigating measures to destroy nature.
You’re welcome to your perspective, though generally this seems like quite an extreme view that foments fear. The comparison of Trump to Hitler just doesn’t hold water at all — it’s a weird rhetorical move that makes the left look desperate to smear the man. I didn’t vote for Trump and am not his biggest fan, but I can appreciate a lot of what he’s doing.
Our government is $36 trillion in debt, a bloated behemoth of a bureaucracy, and ~80% of Americans support (and voted for) cutting out its wasteful inefficiencies. This is decades overdue. Musk is also a complex character and one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time. I’m not his biggest fan either but I generally support his initiative to downsize the government. Both men are fascinating world-historical figures yet it seems you are insisting on reducing them to cartoon caricatures
It’s amazing that you bring up the national debt as a way to try and DEFLECT the comparisons to Hitler. Read a history book before you write a thousand words defending an adjudicated rapist and convicted felon for his “man on a mission” mindset.
Listen to Viviene. She is smarter than you. You are shockingly naive and ignorant of history. This is an authoritarian takeover, plain and simple. Hitler did it. Putin did it. Now Trump is doing it.
"In general, the primary aim of this cleansing process is only to restore a certain sound and natural balance, and, secondly, to remove from official positions of national significance those elements to which one cannot entrust [our] survival."
-- Hitler, about changes made to the civil service. Nothing bad happened after that right?
Trump has undertaken actions that resemble to the early rule of Adolf Hitler in Germany:
1. Control Over Cultural Institutions: Trump assumed leadership of the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, replacing previous appointees with his loyalists. This mirrors tactics used by authoritarian leaders, including Hitler, who manipulated cultural institutions to suppress dissent and propagate their ideologies. 
2. Dehumanizing Rhetoric: Trump has employed language referring to opponents as “vermin,” “parasites,” and “animals.” Such terminology was infamously used by Hitler to vilify and marginalize groups, laying the groundwork for their persecution. 
3. Erosion of Democratic Norms: Trump suggested that actions taken to “save” the country do not violate any laws, implying a belief that he is above the law. This perspective undermines democratic institutions and echoes the justifications used by early fascist leaders to consolidate power. 
4. Targeting Marginalized Communities: Trump’s administration has implemented harsh measures against immigrants, including increased deportations and the reestablishment of private federal prison contracts. These actions disproportionately affect marginalized communities and reflect strategies used by early fascist regimes to suppress and control minority populations. 
5. Alignment with Authoritarian Regimes: Trump’s administration has shown support for far-right regimes internationally, aligning with their cultural politics and economic policies. This shift in U.S. foreign policy resembles the alliances formed by early fascist leaders to bolster their ideological agendas. 
These actions have raised concerns among Americans, both right and left leaning, about the potential erosion of democratic norms and the rise of authoritarianism in the United States. It’s very scary.
I appreciate your perspective. I'm certainly glad that you're detaching Trump's personal agenda (which is petty and vindictive in the extreme, as well as reckless in places, and is certainly a form of cronyism/corruption in as many places as you care to look) from his drive and energy. The former is damaging and regrettable, mostly, though I'm hoping for good outcomes in a few specific policy areas but we'll see. The latter is genuinely interesting and the Big Story of this moment in American history.
I find that I'm neither negatively triggered nor positively activated by Trump. While I do have a personal distaste for the man, and his pathological personality, I also don't think he's "evil" (flawed is different than evil), and I don't think his motivations are incomprehensible. I think he's motivated by a complex mixture of drives and I don't find it difficult to see his more benign or well-motivated drives in the mix right alongside his petty, narcissistic, and destructive motivations.
I'm also not of the belief that all destruction is wrong. Sometimes a thing needs to be reformed, and is in a state such that any attempt at reform will necessarily involve a certain amount of destruction. So be it. The institutional status quo was not something I'm ok with preserving. I would have liked a more thoughtful and humane reformer, but I'm willing to accept that a thoughtful and humane personality might not have been up to the task. Sometimes it takes a wrecking ball.
I worry that the men who find positive activation in Trump are also being encouraged to reify that activation in destructive forms. Yes, personal agency and the boldness needed to act effectively in the world are things that every man (and woman I think) should want to cultivate. My fear is that those using Trump as a role model will imitate his negative qualities so intensely that their newfound agency is directed towards harming vulnerable people, damaging important relationships in their life, and pushing towards a conflict-model that is more like bullying/intimidating than anything constructive.
But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe those negative qualities are just part of the human condition and would be a major risk no matter who the role model is. Even Jesus Fucking Christ himself isn't a good enough role model to keep all the men who nominally follow him to behave with the kind of compassion that defines his story. We can only hope that improvements in material conditions will also lead to improvements in the spiritual conditions that are upstream of so much bad behavior.
Still, I do fantasize about a leader (who could be a woman! though will likely be a man) who has the energy and force of Donald Trump but isn't a malignant narcissist.
If sovereignty is about truth, integrity, and self-awareness, then shouldn’t men be asking: ‘What values does Trump actually embody, and do I truly want to activate that within myself?’
True sovereignty means choosing one’s role models wisely—not blindly admiring force for its own sake.
this is an awesome article! I appreciate it especially given I know it's likely an unpopular opinion in many spiritual circles :D
Thank you! Means a lot that you appreciate it, Jessica. Was a little hesitant to hit ‘publish’ knowing some folks would not like this perspective
I think it’s incredible
It’s about as unpopular an opinion as defending a rapist for their masculinity and “man on a mission” mindset. Because that’s exactly what this article is doing.
Didn’t hear anything akin to defending rape.
I love your work Jordan, and your vision for integrated, conscious, participating men. In this case, I agree with Scott above: to be offering Trump as an avatar of 'man on a mission energy' when he is the very embodiment of dark masculine risks inadvertently legitimising his autocratic tendencies -- which I am sure is not your intent. I am saying this because I am a huge admirer of your vision and the way you conduct yourself. But in this post, I would have loved to have seen you illuminating Trump as a case study of 'wounded masculine', and clearly identify how his 'activating' power is being used to extremely dangerous ends. Offering you this with huge respect, solidarity and appreciation of all you bring into the world with your own unique frequency of beautiful, powerfully embodied solar energy. I find you an inspiration.
Thank you for sharing, Matthew. I really appreciate the kind words.
I didn’t vote for Trump and am not his biggest fan, but I can appreciate a lot of what he’s doing. From where I’m standing he mostly seems to be making good on what he promised the American people and what the American people voted for (which I’ve ~never seen from a politician). I may not agree with all his moves but the man took a bullet for his country and kept going — I don’t believe he would do this purely out of ego, and it speaks to his sheer will and mission-driven energy
Our government is $36 trillion in debt, a bloated behemoth of a bureaucracy, and ~80% of Americans support (and voted for) cutting out its wasteful inefficiencies. This is decades overdue and I generally stand behind it
What you’re seeing as autocratic tendencies can also be seen differently — as an expression of an iron will to do what he told the people he would do. I did touch on the dark/wounded/shadow masculine energy in my piece, though to say Trump is “the very embodiment of dark masculine” for me seems like a one-dimensional caricature of a complex human being. If you listen with an open mind to his interviews with Rogan or Theo Von, for example, you’ll see a different side of him
He’s one of the most hated men in history and it’s important to be aware of the enormous propaganda campaign that has aimed to paint him as a devil. Yet no man can be reduced to his shadow. As Solzhenitsyn put it, “But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
I appreciate your considered response Jordan, and recognise we see developments in the US from very different perspectives. Without getting into a discussion of the arguments, needless to say, I am deeply concerned about what I'm seeing unfolding in the US, and what it portends for the world. I hold open the possibility that my analysis is incorrect, and no doubt time will tell. However, in the meantime, I am committed to gaining a deeper understanding of how people could arrive at such a different perspective on the situation, and on Trump, and what you have shared helps me in this endeavour. I appreciate you receiving my expression of unease over your piece in good faith. Also wishing you well with your open circles this week -- I would have loved to attend but have additional childcare commitments this week that makes it tricker than at other times. Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
Where do you get 80% support from? 64% of the voting population voted in the 2024 election, just under 50% of votes were for Trump. That’s 33% of eligible voters. An even smaller proportion of Americans.
"Then he is the very embodiment of dark masculine risks inadvertently legitimising his autocratic tendencies -- which I am sure is not your intent. " ... I don't think he cares. He's too busy being "activated". A bit pathetic, no? Btw, Jordan: he is an adjudicated rapist.
Couldn't agree more with everything you said Matthew, especially holding Jordan in high regard.
Thanks for appreciating my work Scott 🙏🏼
Yes, I sense we are here as men speaking from the heart, because we care about each other, and we care about the world. Appreciating Jordan for holding this space.
By far, the strongest, wisest, most whole, compassionate, secure, confident men I know in my life do not like Donald Trump or Elon Musk, or at least see them for who they are. They have a sense of balance and certainly don't spend a large portion of their time caring about these men like some do, but still.
Most (who I know) who do like them (or worship them?) have a deep sense of insecurity and weakness masquerading as some weird sort of "this is what strong looks like".
To each their own (that's the way it should be, of course), but I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of this situation.
In my opinion if we are viewing Trump/Musk as any sort of form of masculinity that any man should aspire to (a battering ram of masculine energy and purpose? Really?), then we are in deep trouble indeed. Do I agree with you that some of these triggered men need strong male role models? 100% yes. I just think Trump/Musk are the last people I would ever choose as those models. At least for any of the young men I have raised/coached/taught.
You may be missing my key point. I didn’t say anything about aspiring to be Trump or Musk. I’m specifically pointing to a particular quality of man-on-a-mission-ness that they definitely embody in spades. This particular quality is un-actualized in vast quantities of modern men and many men would benefit from actualizing it
I do understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree regarding the un-actualized potential of many modern young men.
The "man-on-a-mission-ness" that these two men "definitely embody in spades" is embarrassing in my opinion, and I think it does a disservice and is potentially dangerous to any young man to use them as any sort of example. I do think they are certainly examples of how NOT to be a man in almost every way, however.
I also disagree with your assertion regarding "why Trump triggers men".
IMO, I think Trump triggers most men because it is appropriate masculine behavior to respond to an asshole/bully by calling him out as an asshole/bully, and teaching young men the difference between true strength and utter weakness masquerading as strength.
Perhaps we simply run with different crowds of men? I understand your role in men's work, so maybe this is something you see with the folks you attract. I can't argue with that if that's the case, and I respect what you do. I'm sure if someone is hung up one way or the other on either of these guys, that you could possibly harness that energy in a more productive way. THAT I understand. But I can only see that working if it is divorced from the behavior we are seeing on display. Just giving my viewpoint on this. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong.
Disclaimer: I'm not being political here. I'm not a fan of either party right now, or really much of anything that is going on in that arena.
Our government is $36 trillion in debt, a bloated behemoth of a bureaucracy, and ~80% of Americans support (and voted for) cutting out its wasteful inefficiencies. This is decades overdue and I generally stand behind it
I did state in my piece that there are probably other reasons Trump triggers people. Yet I think what I’m pointing at is a larger factor than most would admit
I personally know quite a few good men who feel optimistic about this administration. I chose not to vote and I’m not Trump’s biggest fan but I generally feel optimistic about a number of the initiatives. I’m glad to see RFK Jr and Tulsi being sworn in. It’s too early to tell where all this is headed so let’s watch and see what happens (not that ppl will ever agree about what happens & whether it was favorable or unfavorable)
Take care Scott
Thanks Jordan.
I'm a little confused as you seem to be approaching this from a political perspective now, which I stated was not my intent in my post, but more so looking at the character, behavior, and words of the two men and how this relates in some way to the challenging issues that modern young men face. For example, the men I mentioned in my first post that I stated do not like Trump are not all vehemently opposed to him from a political perspective.
One can feel that politically their actions may have some merit, while simultaneously understanding (IMO) that it is immature and (I'm just going to be quite frank here) completely misguided to look towards them in any way as a reference point for helping young men. Also, I watched Trump on Rogan and Theo Von. I see little complexity in him, but to each his own. It seemed that the point of those two interviews was to frame it that way.
I won't get into the political side here, as it seems (at least I thought) that wasn't the intent of your article. Suffice it to say that I echo Matthew's comments above on what I see happening in the US.
Finally, Jordan, let me say that I'm really not trying to be rude here at all. I know that you work with men, and are hosting some gatherings in the very near future. As a fellow father (of two elementary age boys), a basketball coach to many young men, and a citizen, stuff like this does concern me. The risk is legitimizing any of this behavior as "manly" or "healthy masculinity". It simply is not, and I will use my extremely limited online presence to at least attempt to have a little bit of a say, as someone who deeply cares about the mental and spiritual growth of our young people.
Thanks for all you do. Your article is great in that it allows open discussion like this to take place. Sometimes the nature of back and forth text leads to a feeling of disconnection. I feel that if we were having this conversation face to face, we'd probably be more in line than we realize, perhaps even clinking beer bottles at certain points :)
Thanks, Scott -- I can feel the kindness and respect and I really appreciate that. And I'd love to have that beer sometime! Maybe it would be cool to have a call and actually talk this out? Let me know if you may be up for that, or feel welcome to schedule a call: calendly.com/jordanbates
I can now see more clearly the distinction you're making around not making this political. I do hear you that much of Trump's personal behavior over the years has seemed immature, petty, bullying, self-aggrandizing, and not something we want to be passing on to young men as any sort of emblem of mature masculinity
That said I do personally notice a change in him that seems to have taken place since he first ran in 2016... losing in 2020 was humbling for him, I believe. And getting shot seemed to affect him too. I personally feel something coming through in his more recent speeches / press conferences that feels more human -- and more fatherly or grandfatherly or even presidential... I actually found his inauguration speech to be genuinely inspiring and unifying -- he spoke of a possibility of ending war globally, and he seems to be backing that up with some of his actions...
So for me more of a soft spot seems to have opened up in my heart for him. I believe all human beings are like complex Dostoevsky-novel characters -- patchwork tapestries of many threads... I see that in him too -- and I believe people have the capacity to change... and I believe that in his own way he is genuinely endeavoring to do right by his nation and the people who voted for him
And I do still stand by my original point that he is a force of nature when it comes to actualizing his will in the world -- and that many men would benefit from activating more of that ancient lifeblood of penetrative masculine manifestational power... though indeed, if that power is not guided by the Heart of Hearts, our species will likely continue on a path toward destruction
Love & Blessings for You and Yours,
Jordan
Appreciate your response Jordan. I'll look into your schedule for a potential phone call. Thanks again.
Jordan, I wanted to make one more comment here as I have been reflecting on this for a day or two.
You say: "That said I do personally notice a change in him that seems to have taken place since he first ran in 2016... losing in 2020 was humbling for him, I believe. And getting shot seemed to affect him too. I personally feel something coming through in his more recent speeches / press conferences that feels more human -- and more fatherly or grandfatherly or even presidential... I actually found his inauguration speech to be genuinely inspiring and unifying -- he spoke of a possibility of ending war globally, and he seems to be backing that up with some of his actions..."
I certainly can't tell you that your own, personal feelings are wrong, but, IMO, this has much more to do with you and your internal world than any sort of change that has happened in Donald Trump himself. To be frank, I'm not sure how anyone could possibly come to this conclusion with any sort of critical thinking and objective analysis. Trump demonstrates no sort of internal reflection, growth, increased compassion, etc. over the past 9 years. (Again, not talking politically here). If anything, I see the opposite. He certainly hasn't changed his behavior or his methods. He is the same person we have all known for the past 40-50 years. If I had to look up a definition in the dictionary of "not humbling", I would point to how Trump handled his loss in 2020. I'm sorry man, I just so vehemently disagree with what you are saying in this above paragraph especially in a post about helping young men that I simply have to call a spade a spade here.
Here's some good masculinity for you: When things don't go your way, make sure to ALWAYS blame someone else, never look within, and certainly NEVER consider that you could be wrong about something. What a great example! The 2nd-3rd grade boys who I coach are much better examples of how to be a man, and I certainly know if any of them or my two boys acted like our president, they would get a talking to and a harsh lesson. I suspect you probably feel the same way.
There are simply too many great fucking men in this world to allow pictures of Trump on lions and Trump grift trading card doppelgangers as examples of masculinity to young, impressionable men to go unchecked here.
I think it can be healthy for men to call out each other's bull shit if that's what they see happening, so that's what I'm attempting to do here, knowing that you can handle it. I know I'm glad when my friends call me out when they see something they feel is amiss.
The rest of your post I think offers some good points.
Love it--I have sent your invite to the 4 most beautiful men in my life!
Thank you Laura — that really means a lot to me. 🙏🏼❤️🔥 Blessings
Jordan, I appreciate your work and I have always felt that you are someone who truly cares about all people and all life. However, I felt especially compelled to write a comment on this post (I think this is my first ever Substack comment) because it really irks something in me.
Jordan, know that I love you and appreciate you but I just have to say this very bluntly: your political analysis sucks (not just referencing this post but your other ones as well) It is clear that you have quite high spiritual development but your political views are just so off brother, and are perpetuating a lot of harm.
Trump and others are quickly turning this nation into an oligarchy and increasingly moving towards authoritarianism….yeah Trump is on a mission, a mission to gain more money, more power for himself and preserve America as a predominately white christian nation. Validating Trump in your posts is utterly blasphemous. He is causing damage to the nation and to the world on a level unprecedented to any other USA president. You need to take a deeper look at the things that are happening out here brother. I believe in you
Hey Wyeth, thanks for appreciating my work and for sharing your perspective. It means a lot that you can sense my genuine care for all people and for life.
Since you have opted for bluntness, I'll do the same:
You come across as rather patronizing/condescending here with comments like "your political analysis sucks," "your political views are just so off," "you need to take a deeper look," and "I believe in you"...
You seem to be implying that you're certain you have reached a more objectively accurate view than me about these matters, yet you don't provide much in the way of argumentation, other than to parrot some commonplace left-wing media talking points. You claim to know Trump's true motivations—but do you know this for certain? No, you don't. It's an opinion. You also imply that America was not already largely oligarchically controlled by a small group of people pre-Trump, which seems false. You boldly state that Trump is causing unprecedented damage, yet you don't back this up with anything.
I'm curious: What are your key sources for political information? Whose work do you recommend I look into to refine my perspective? I regularly explore the work of people on all sides of (and beyond) the right-left political spectrum. Do you?
You seem like an interesting guy based on a brief Google search of your work. If you're open I'd be curious to have a call sometime and have a good-faith heart-to-heart about all this, to find out more about where our divergences arise from. Feel welcome to schedule one if you like: calendly.com/jordanbates
Best wishes to you, man.
With Care,
Jordan
Hey Jordan, thanks for the thoughtful response. There is so much to say about Trump but I will try to keep it as succinct as possible: read his biographies (“Trump: The Biography”, “Trump: The Art Of The Deal”) in them you will find that Trump’s entire life philosophy revolves around this idea of being a “winner” and “being the best”…so naturally you can assume based off this, and the self-aggrandizing comments he makes daily that his consciousness is operating from a heavily egocentric orientation.
In psychological terms (I come from a psychological background) one would say he is narcissistic. You can also find countless accounts online of psychologists giving sound reasoning alluding to Trump’s narcissistic nature. This isn’t something the liberal media just says to slander Trump. There’s truth to it.
The kicker for me is the fact that Trump was documented to have lied/distorted facts over 30,000 times during his presidency. If you listen to his speeches it becomes clear that he just rambles and spitballs and will say virtually whatever will make him and his campaign look good. He has never once spoken intelligently on any topic relating to politics, government, economics, etc.
For me personally, when someone is documented to have lied that many times, and when their speeches don’t ever sound intelligent in any way, I simply can’t trust a word that comes out that person’s mouth.
He can say all of these seemingly noble things, he can speak of ending war and making America prosperous again…but it just doesn’t hold any merit because…look who is saying them. Someone who was documented to have lied 30,000 times in a 4 year span. Someone who lost an election and couldn’t handle the idea of “losing” so he said the election was stolen. Someone who provoked a clearly unjust attack on the capitol building. Someone who has been involved in numerous fradulent business practices his entire life. And much more.
You say I don’t know Trump’s true motivations, and I admit I can’t know them in their entirety…but judging by his character, his history (again read his biographies)…you can come to understand far more than you might assume about his motivations and what is driving him.
I would also highly recommend diving deep into developmental psychology. Don Beck’s “Spiral Dynamics”, Dr. Susanne Cook-Greuter’s “The 9 Stages of Ego Development”, Ken Wilber’s “Integral Psychology”…these books are synthetic pieces of the works of the entire field’s history, with emphasis on adult psychological development. Wilber’s “Trump and a Post-Truth World” is also exquisite when it comes to explaining the current political state of the world in developmental terms.
Developmentally speaking, Trump and the Republicans operate from a primarily ethnocentric and nationcentric level of development, as many Republicans are quite obviously racist, and the entire party’s orientation stems around national interest (often with ethnocentric undertones) and advancing what is perceived best for America, which often comes at the expense of other nations.
The Democrats operate from a slightly higher altitude, still heavily nationcentric but also embodying a greater level of worldcentrism as well. A good example of this is the Democrats being so gung ho on climate change, which, if you hear the opinions of virtually any scientist, is a very real issue that humanity faces. Trump and the Republicans mostly deny the issue of climate change entirely, Trump removed America from Paris Climate Agreement, which represented a unification of many nations invested in cleaning up our carbon footprint, yet Trump and the Republicans left it so they could continue with their fossil fuel emissions, which will give them money in the short-term, but will erode the environment all the more in the long term. It is a hallmark of lower levels of maturity to prioritize short-term gain over long-term vision. Trump has basically no long-term vision at all. I could give many, many more examples of Trump and the Republicans rejecting worldcentric orientations for a more narrowly-minded interest (think about the fact that Trump is so heavily anti Diversity, Equity, Inclusion)
Of course, there is plenty of distortion and corruption on both sides, and both sides need to be called out. But my qualms with your perspective Jordan (not in this post but some of your others) is that you paint the parties as falsely equal, when they are not. The reality is that Trump and the Republicans are fundamentally less mature, less conscious, and more selfish and express a more narrow-concern in their political orientations and philosophy than the Democrats do. This doesn’t mean everything they do is wrong, and everything the Democrats do is right…but it does paint a picture as to where people are coming from and what their interests are. Would you rather support the side that expresses a greater concern for all people and life? Or would you rather support the more narrow and contracted side?
And about the oligarchy stuff, yes America has long been quite oligarchical, but with Trump it is getting way, way, wayyy worse. Do you not see a problem when the world’s 3 richest men (Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg) are all standing by Trump’s side at his inauguration? Musk alone has gotten 70B+ richer since Trump’s election. Musk, who isn’t even American, now has a quite influential role in government simply because Trump put him there. He wasn’t elected! That’s a freaking oligarchy!
And regarding the damage Trump is doing, it is happening on many levels. Firstly, his character and narcissistic nature is setting an atrocious example to the people of America and to the world on how a leader ought to act, the youth will be particularly affected by this. He has gradually eroded what the nation comes to consider “Truth” evidenced by his 30,000 lies in his first campaign, his denial of basic science (climate change for example)…and many of his recent flurry of executive orders are unconstitutional (he tried to take away birth-right citizenship, like wtf?)…and he also signed an executive order yesterday that essentially says “only the president can say what the law is” (a clear power grab lol). These are the most extreme executive orders but to me, it seems he is wielding as much power as possible as he can within his position, and my hunch is that he is trying to erode the power of the other branches of government. I could go on and on about more examples…the fact he seems to be siding with Putin and autocrat Russia more and more (Ukraine was not even invited to the peace talks and Trump recently falsely claimed that Ukraine started the war, which is a very very dangerous lie to tell)
Anyway, I know I am biased but I know enough to not trust a narcissist. Narcissists talk out of their ass and if you can’t see that with Trump then I just don’t know what else I can say. I was deeply irked when you seemed to be validating Trump through this post and giving him too much praise in your other posts. It is a very dangerous thing to do, when he so clearly represents a contractive and repressive force in the world when consciousness so deeply yearns for freedom, transcendence, and liberation.
I’m sure if we had a call we would agree on far more than it might seem, and I may take you up on that…but I couldn’t let these comments about Trump slide. I had an angry and patronizing tone in the first comment because that’s how I genuinely felt. I was angry and I wanted to communicate that! Some of the comments on here are thoughtful, but too nice.
Anyways, just want to say again I appreciate your work Jordan but I hope you think more before you praise Trump again, and I hope you think more about what type of impact this might have on your readers.
Btw, I hear what you are saying in this post, and i’m not denying the nobility of “man on a mission” energy, but to use Trump as an example is wild, since his mission is profoundly narcissistic, partial, and causing enormous amounts of suffering to others
Trump is on a mission like Hitler was. Musk is working to reduce the government organisations that financially support individuals in many different ways when he and his organisations have received Billions and billions of dollars from the government.
Both are hypocrites.
Just as hypocritical as your illustrations show: a strong beautiful man riding a lion when he is in reality he is obese, ugly looking and instigating measures to destroy nature.
You’re welcome to your perspective, though generally this seems like quite an extreme view that foments fear. The comparison of Trump to Hitler just doesn’t hold water at all — it’s a weird rhetorical move that makes the left look desperate to smear the man. I didn’t vote for Trump and am not his biggest fan, but I can appreciate a lot of what he’s doing.
Our government is $36 trillion in debt, a bloated behemoth of a bureaucracy, and ~80% of Americans support (and voted for) cutting out its wasteful inefficiencies. This is decades overdue. Musk is also a complex character and one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time. I’m not his biggest fan either but I generally support his initiative to downsize the government. Both men are fascinating world-historical figures yet it seems you are insisting on reducing them to cartoon caricatures
Take care
It’s amazing that you bring up the national debt as a way to try and DEFLECT the comparisons to Hitler. Read a history book before you write a thousand words defending an adjudicated rapist and convicted felon for his “man on a mission” mindset.
Listen to Viviene. She is smarter than you. You are shockingly naive and ignorant of history. This is an authoritarian takeover, plain and simple. Hitler did it. Putin did it. Now Trump is doing it.
"In general, the primary aim of this cleansing process is only to restore a certain sound and natural balance, and, secondly, to remove from official positions of national significance those elements to which one cannot entrust [our] survival."
-- Hitler, about changes made to the civil service. Nothing bad happened after that right?
Trump has undertaken actions that resemble to the early rule of Adolf Hitler in Germany:
1. Control Over Cultural Institutions: Trump assumed leadership of the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, replacing previous appointees with his loyalists. This mirrors tactics used by authoritarian leaders, including Hitler, who manipulated cultural institutions to suppress dissent and propagate their ideologies. 
2. Dehumanizing Rhetoric: Trump has employed language referring to opponents as “vermin,” “parasites,” and “animals.” Such terminology was infamously used by Hitler to vilify and marginalize groups, laying the groundwork for their persecution. 
3. Erosion of Democratic Norms: Trump suggested that actions taken to “save” the country do not violate any laws, implying a belief that he is above the law. This perspective undermines democratic institutions and echoes the justifications used by early fascist leaders to consolidate power. 
4. Targeting Marginalized Communities: Trump’s administration has implemented harsh measures against immigrants, including increased deportations and the reestablishment of private federal prison contracts. These actions disproportionately affect marginalized communities and reflect strategies used by early fascist regimes to suppress and control minority populations. 
5. Alignment with Authoritarian Regimes: Trump’s administration has shown support for far-right regimes internationally, aligning with their cultural politics and economic policies. This shift in U.S. foreign policy resembles the alliances formed by early fascist leaders to bolster their ideological agendas. 
These actions have raised concerns among Americans, both right and left leaning, about the potential erosion of democratic norms and the rise of authoritarianism in the United States. It’s very scary.
I appreciate your perspective. I'm certainly glad that you're detaching Trump's personal agenda (which is petty and vindictive in the extreme, as well as reckless in places, and is certainly a form of cronyism/corruption in as many places as you care to look) from his drive and energy. The former is damaging and regrettable, mostly, though I'm hoping for good outcomes in a few specific policy areas but we'll see. The latter is genuinely interesting and the Big Story of this moment in American history.
I find that I'm neither negatively triggered nor positively activated by Trump. While I do have a personal distaste for the man, and his pathological personality, I also don't think he's "evil" (flawed is different than evil), and I don't think his motivations are incomprehensible. I think he's motivated by a complex mixture of drives and I don't find it difficult to see his more benign or well-motivated drives in the mix right alongside his petty, narcissistic, and destructive motivations.
I'm also not of the belief that all destruction is wrong. Sometimes a thing needs to be reformed, and is in a state such that any attempt at reform will necessarily involve a certain amount of destruction. So be it. The institutional status quo was not something I'm ok with preserving. I would have liked a more thoughtful and humane reformer, but I'm willing to accept that a thoughtful and humane personality might not have been up to the task. Sometimes it takes a wrecking ball.
I worry that the men who find positive activation in Trump are also being encouraged to reify that activation in destructive forms. Yes, personal agency and the boldness needed to act effectively in the world are things that every man (and woman I think) should want to cultivate. My fear is that those using Trump as a role model will imitate his negative qualities so intensely that their newfound agency is directed towards harming vulnerable people, damaging important relationships in their life, and pushing towards a conflict-model that is more like bullying/intimidating than anything constructive.
But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe those negative qualities are just part of the human condition and would be a major risk no matter who the role model is. Even Jesus Fucking Christ himself isn't a good enough role model to keep all the men who nominally follow him to behave with the kind of compassion that defines his story. We can only hope that improvements in material conditions will also lead to improvements in the spiritual conditions that are upstream of so much bad behavior.
Still, I do fantasize about a leader (who could be a woman! though will likely be a man) who has the energy and force of Donald Trump but isn't a malignant narcissist.
If sovereignty is about truth, integrity, and self-awareness, then shouldn’t men be asking: ‘What values does Trump actually embody, and do I truly want to activate that within myself?’
True sovereignty means choosing one’s role models wisely—not blindly admiring force for its own sake.